Elon Musk has been hailed as the next Steve Jobs, a serial disruptor and a genius. Others call him just crazy. Yet Musk has defied the naysayers and made remarkable innovations in both electric cars and spaceflight over the last ten years. But just how accurate is the Steve Jobs comparison?
“Most innovation is like a new melody,” writes Ted curator Chris Anderson. “For Jobs and Musk, it’s the whole symphony.”
Anderson’s analogy is right. Neither men do things in small measures. They seek to change the world.
I interviewed Elon Musk last year in one of his most revealing public appearances, and he exposed a complex character that is both deadly serious yet comedic at times; driven yet sensitive; single minded, and yet eclectic in his desire to change the world in multiple ways.
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That sensitivity was apparent several times during our dialogue when his eyes welled up in response to my questions about the future of NASA, Neil Armstrong, and candlelight vigils for the EV1 (@28:35, 1:04:00 & 39:50 in the video). Steve Jobs was also known to weep.
Musk has many traits in common with Jobs and yet in subtle ways their characters are distinct. Elon Musk vs Steve Jobs. The two did meet, but it didn’t go well.
Here are five revealing moments from our conversation that emphasize the common threads between the two businessmen.
1. Ability to Sell Great Ideas
Jobs used his infamous “reality distortion field” to push his teams hard to achieve much more that they thought was possible. His oft-quoted phrase was “insanely great” and his product launches were passionate and brash.
Musk is more pragmatic in his approach, he rarely uses buzzwords*, and although his product launches are often equally dazzling, his delivery is less assured, more halting.
*Granted, he does talk about getting a “money shot” of his greenhouse on Mars idea (@30:00 in the video).
“In the beginning there will be few people who believe in you or in what you’re doing but then over time… the evidence will build and more and more people will believe in what you’re doing. So, I think it’s a good idea when creating a company to … have a demonstration or to be able to sketch something so people can really envision what it’s about. Try to get to that point as soon as possible.” Elon Musk
This Word Art of our 90-minute conversation reveals no catchy buzzwords, though the word THINK stands out prominently.
Stories abound of Steve Jobs’ intense attention to detail. He notoriously spent months agonizing over the internal layout of the Mac computer’s circuit board.
“I want it to be as beautiful as possible, even if it’s inside the box. A great carpenter isn’t going to use lousy wood for the back of a cabinet, even though nobody’s going to see it.” Steve Jobs
When his team failed to deliver on his vision, Jobs often flew into terrible rages. Case in point: the first fanless computer.
By contrast, Musk is known for his attention to detail and being a demanding boss, but he focuses his Vulcan rage at the media over issues like damning test drives, and Tesla car fires; and at foes such as auto dealerships.
His rage also turns inward. For example, when he discovered the wrong type of screw used in the Model S sun visors. He reportedly said, “they felt like daggers in my eyes.”
While doing pre-interviews with Musk’s colleagues, I heard a revealing story about his obsession with the Tesla Model S key fob. A colleague described how he agonized for weeks over the shape, the girth, the weight of the fob till it was just right. Take a peek at the end result and see if you think it was all worth it.
When I visited the Tesla factory (on assignment for KQED), I heard a similar story from the mechanics working on the iconic Model S door handles. Responsive door handles that sit flush with car doors looked like mission impossible, yet Musk and his team eventually prevailed. The result is so highly prized that my tour guide, Gilbert Passin (VP for manufacturing at Tesla) forbade me to take close-up photos of the components, for fear of copycats.
3. Ability to Think Differently Stems from Splendid Isolation
When I asked Musk if he was a lonely kid, he replied:
“I wasn’t all that much of a loner…at least not willingly. I was very very bookish.” Elon Musk
As a kid he was consumed by his own world, reading books like “The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy,” and playing Dungeons and Dragons for hours. Musk found coding a piece of cake and created his own software at the tender age of 12. Thanks to his bookish childhood, his innovative ideas could flourish without being squashed by friends or family.
Similarly, Jobs had an isolated childhood, and was bullied at school. He did no competitive school sports and was obsessed by electronics and gadgets.
4. Deep Thinking
Although Jobs was less techie, more visionary; and Musk is a geeky engineer who prides himself on innovation using scientific first principles, both are deep thinkers.
Elon Musk explained how Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy inspired him while he was looking for the meaning of life as a teenager.
“It highlighted an important point, which is that a lot of times the question is harder than the answer. And if you can properly phrase the question, then the answer is the easy part. To the degree that we can better understand the universe, then we can better know what questions to ask. Then whatever the question is that most approximates: what’s the meaning of life? That’s the question we can ultimately get closer to understanding. And so I thought to the degree that we can expand the scope and scale of consciousness and knowledge, then that would be a good thing.” Elon Musk
Walter Isaacson, the author of Jobs’ biography wrote that Jobs felt throughout his life that he was on a journey — and he often said, ‘The journey was the reward.’ But that journey involved resolving conflicts about his role in this world: why he was here and what it was all about. He had a lifelong interest in Zen Buddhism and they discussed whether or not he believed in an afterlife.
“Sometimes I’m 50-50 on whether there’s a God. It’s the great mystery we never quite know. But I like to believe there’s an afterlife. I like to believe the accumulated wisdom doesn’t just disappear when you die, but somehow it endures.” Steve Jobs
5. Impact
Although Musk isn’t yet the household name that Jobs has become, those who’re familiar with Musk’s work and genius compare him to Leonardo da Vinci and The Atlantic recently described him as one of the most ambitious innovators of this era. And what about Steve Jobs? He was described in the study as “a star of popular culture.”
Ouch!
During our interview, Musk shared the story of his brief encounter with the great Steve Jobs. The two were introduced by Google’s Larry Page at a party and Musk describes Jobs as being “super rude” to him. Nevertheless, this didn’t dent his admiration for the Apple guru. Here’s our dialogue:
Elon Musk: “The guy had a certain magic about him that was really inspiring. I think that’s really great.”
Alison van Diggelen: “Is it that magic that you try to emulate?”
Elon Musk: “No, I think Steve Jobs was way cooler than I am.”
Although Apple fans will agree strongly with that assessment, feedback at YouTube loudly contradicts Musk. Here’s one of the more polite reactions:
“Sounds just like Thomas Edison and Nikola Tesla. Except Elon Musk will probably end up being much more memorable than Steve Jobs :P”
As 2014 begins, Musk is still right, Steve Jobs is generally perceived as being “way cooler” than him. But that could change.
What will the history books conclude, in ten or twenty years from now? Steve Jobs certainly has big shoes to fill, but Elon Musk is already beginning to fill them. A lot will depend on Musk’s ability to see his grand visions come to fruition. First, he must complete his “Secret Master Plan for Tesla,” which includes the creation of a popular mass market electric car; and second, his vision of making space rockets reusable just like modern day jets.
One day, he may even achieve his life’s mission of dying on Mars, but as he describes it, “Just not on impact.”
For the first time, entrepreneur Elon Musk shared his whole life story in front of a live audience in Silicon Valley. He joined me in conversation at the Computer History Museum on January 22 and we explored: What makes a Revolutionary?
Musk takes us on a journey from the suburban streets of South Africa to the tech mecca of Silicon Valley…and beyond. He tells me about his teenage “existential crisis” and his bookish quest for the meaning of life; how the retirement of NASA’s space shuttle inspired his space transport startup SpaceX; and why he became the reluctant CEO of electric car company Tesla Motors.
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Interview highlights and key turning points in his career:
The Rebellious Child: Musk grew up in South Africa. At age 6, he desperately wanted to attend his cousin’s birthday party, but was grounded for some long-forgotten transgression. How did he get there? (This was probably the first of his many rule-breaking adventures.)
“It was clear across town, 10 or 12 miles away, further than I realized actually, but I just started walking…I think it took me about four hours…My mother freaked out.”
The Iron Man Inspiration: He was a huge fan of comics and read Iron Man comics. Did he ever imagine he’d be the inspiration for Robert Downey Jr’s movie character, Tony Stark?
“I did not. I would have said zero percent chance…I wasn’t all that much of a loner…at least not willingly. I was very very bookish.”
The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy: How did the novel fire his imagination?
“I was around 12 or 15…I had an existential crisis, and I was reading various books on trying to figure out the meaning of life and what does it all mean? …I read Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy and it highlighted an important point which is that a lot of times the question is harder than the answer. And if you can properly phrase the question, then the answer is the easy part. To the degree that we can better understand the universe, then we can better know what questions to ask. Then whatever the question is that most approximates: what’s the meaning of life? That’s the question we can ultimately get closer to understanding. And so I thought to the degree that we can expand the scope and scale of consciousness and knowledge, then that would be a good thing.”
Why was Silicon Valley his mecca at age 17?
“Whenever I read about cool technology, it would tend to be in the United States…I wanted to be where the cutting edge technology was and of course, Silicon Valley is where the heart of things is…it sounded like some mythical place.”
Why did his startup X.com (the precursor to PayPal) come close to dying in 2000?
“The growth in the company was pretty crazy…by the end of the first four or five weeks we had a hundred thousand customers and it wasn’t all good…we had some bugs in the software…Various financial regulatory agencies were trying to shut us down, Visa and Mastercard were trying to shut us down, eBay…the FTC…there were a lot of battles there. (But) we had a really talented group of people at PayPal…It worked out better than we expected.”
After making over $150M from PayPal, why not just buy an island and relax?
“The idea of lying on a beach as my main thing sounds horrible to me…I would go bonkers. I’d have to be on serious drugs…I’d be super duper bored…I like high intensity.”
SpaceX’s Falcon 9 launcher that carried Dragon to orbit, 2012. Fresh Dialogues interview
On the seeds of SpaceX
“I always thought that we’d make much more progress in space…and it just didn’t happen…it was really disappointing, so I was really quite bothered by it. So when we went to the moon, we were supposed to have a base on the moon, we were supposed to send people to Mars and that stuff just didn’t happen. We went backwards. I thought, well maybe it’s a question of there not being enough intention or ‘will’ to do this. This was a wrong assumption. That’s the reason for the greenhouse idea…if there could be a small philanthropic mission to Mars…a small greenhouse with seeds and dehydrated nutrients, you’d have this great shot of a little greenhouse with little green plants on a red background. I thought that would get people excited…you have to imagine the money shot. I thought this would result in a bigger budget for NASA and then we could resume the journey…”
On negotiations with the Russian military to buy two ICBMs
“They just thought I was crazy…I had three quite interesting trips to Russia to try to negotiate purchase of two Russian ICBMs…minus the nukes…I slightly got the feeling that was on the table, which was very alarming. Those were very weird meetings with the Russian military…’remarkably capitalist’ was my impression (of the Russians).”
Why he chose to create his own rocket company, SpaceX
“I came to the conclusion that my initial premise was wrong that in fact that there’s a great deal of will, there’s not such a shortage. But people don’t think there’s a way. And if people thought there was a way or something that wouldn’t break the federal budget, then people would support it. The United States is a distillation of the human spirit of exploration. People came here from other places…people need to believe that it’s possible, so I thought it’s a question of showing people that there’s a way…There wasn’t really a good reason for rockets to be so expensive. If one could make them reusable, like airplanes then the cost of rocketry (and space travel) would drop dramatically.”
How did the vigils for the death of the EV 1 help inspire Tesla Motors?
“It’s crazy. When was the last time you heard about any company, customers holding a candlelight vigil for the demise of that product? Particularly a GM product? I mean, what bigger wake-up call do you need? Like hello, the customers are really upset about this…that kind of blew my mind.”
“I tried really hard not to be the CEO of two startups at the same time…It’s not appealing and shouldn’t be appealing if anyone thinks that’s a good idea. It’s a terrible idea.”
On the idea for SolarCity
“Solar is the obvious primary means of sustainable energy generation…in fact, the earth is almost entirely solar powered today. The only reason we’re not a frozen ice-ball at 3 degrees Kelvin is because of the sun…”
Check back soon for more from Musk on:
where his inspiration strikes (hint: not just Burning Man)
how to build, motivate and retain an excellent team
Last night Elon Musk, CEO of SpaceX and Tesla Motors joined me in conversation for the Revolutionaries Series at the Computer History Museum in Silicon Valley. We explored his journey from South Africa to Silicon Valley and beyond and he was exceptionally candid about his entrepreneurial highs and lows. He also shared a fascinating glimpse into the future…flying cars, hyperloops and Mars, oh my! His eyes welled up as he spoke with deep emotion about Neil Armstrong, the need for space exploration and the impassioned vigils after the death of the EV1. But he also displayed a great sense of humor throughout the interview. Did you know he plans to die on Mars? Just not on impact.
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Here is the transcript of our conversation:
Here’s the podcast from KQED:
On the chances of a SpaceX IPO this year
Not likely. Elon explained that he’s not in a hurry to make SpaceX a public company because the short term desires of shareholders would conflict with the company’s longer term goals (which included manned space flights to Mars).
On flying cars
He anticipates the production of flying cars in the near future (and he wasn’t talking about the acceleration of Tesla’s Model S). In response to my question: will it be an Elon Musk production? he demurred. But when I asked, is someone going to do it? He replied: someone *is* doing it.
On the inspiration for Tesla Motors
Musk had the audience roaring with laughter when we discussed the wailing and gnashing of teeth that occurred after the forced recall of the EV1. He said, “How often do customers have candlelight vigils for the end of life of a product? Especially a GM product?”
On being an entrepreneur @38.0 on video
Remember that failure is the most likely outcome. Only do it, if you’re compelled to do it and are willing to eat glass and stare into the abyss.
“If you don’t eat glass you are not going to be successful,” Elon Musk
On the importance of sleep
Musk recommends getting a good night’s sleep, as you’ll be more productive. Despite running two companies and having five children, he averages 6 hours a night. Less than that and he admits to getting grumpy and achieving much less.
On the environment @55.0-1.00.00 on video
He says putting hydrocarbons into the atmosphere is “the world’s dumbest experiment“…We’re playing a lethal game of Russian roulette with the atmosphere and every year, we’re adding another bullet.
The hour long interview will appear on the Computer History Museum YouTube channel next week and air on KQED TV in April. Check back soon for more photos and more details on inspiration, innovation and SolarCity. Check out #CHMElonMusk on Twitter for more audience reaction.
This is a timely story about addiction, suffering, and how one tenacious woman found her purpose in life. Everyone I’ve talked to about this story has been fascinated, full of questions. That got me more and more excited about sharing it.
Sometimes I just pinch myself that I became an accidental journalist. This week more than ever. Interviewing people like Elon Musk, Richard Branson and Meryl Streep is thrilling. Being in the same space as the Dalai Lama, or witnessing the first solar-powered plane take off from a Silicon Valley runway is inspiring, but this month’s assignment for the BBC outshines all of that. Raising awareness about a relatively unknown, and potentially lethal syndrome, and helping to save lives, gives my work a more profound purpose. My research shows the syndrome is growing in prevalence and severity around the world.
Katie Nava, a nurse in California, almost died from this syndrome, but she’s now helping people recover. I’m so thankful to her for sharing her vulnerability and her inspiring story so candidly.
“I gave up weed and went to my Facebook page. I’ve found my calling. It was an unfortunate way to find it. I owe my life to the page. We’re spreading awareness.” Nurse, Katie Nava.
We’re all aware that the impacts of the Covid pandemic on our mental health has been brutal. The data is only now coming to light and experts say it’s just the tip of the iceberg. So, if one of your coping mechanisms has been to start using, or use pot a wee bit more than you did previously, please read on and share this with friends who might be over-indulging their love for cannabis. And tell your friends in the medical field how to identify this syndrome.
Keith Humphreys is a professor at Stanford, an expert in addiction, and one of my favorite academic experts to interview. He sums up the problem like this:
“Everyone in public health needs to be engaged and not fall for the line that cannabis is unlike any other drug in history. Every drug can have a bad effect. That’s the reality of our experience, the reality of chemistry.” Keith Humphreys
Here’s a longer version of the transcript: Alison van Diggelen: When Katie Nava had her first experience of Cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome, CHS, she felt like she was going to die…
Katie Nava: It’s the most painful thing. You want to commit suicide in the middle of an episode.
The intensity made me nauseous. I’d spend the rest of day on the floor throwing up in this excruciating knotted up, doubled over pain. Like someone took a knife and twisted it in your stomach. You can’t stop it. We’ve coined the term scromiting: screaming while you vomit. My pain was always in the exact same place: It’s right where your stomach and esophagus meet. It’s just on fire. My throat would always be on fire, I had post nasal drip all the time…
Alison van Diggelen: For four years, Katie Nava, a licensed nurse in Southern California, was in and out of the Emergency Room, and had countless appointments with gastro, ENT and other specialist doctors. She had CAT Scans, colonoscopies, and doctors even suggested surgery to remove her gall bladder. Despite a digital trail of medical evidence from her Kaiser doctors, no one could identify what ailed her.
Katie Nava: I started thinking I was crazy. They would say nothing is wrong with me. I was getting labeled as a drug seeker. It hurt so much.
Alison van Diggelen: Finally, a nurse at another hospital recognized the symptoms and asked Katie Nava if she used marijuana. She was diagnosed with Cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome, also known as CHS.
The first mention of CHS in the medical literature was not that long ago. In 2004 Australian doctors noticed a link between 19 cases of cyclic vomiting in people who used marijuana. Since then cases have been recorded in the UK, France, Australia, the Netherlands, Canada, Spain, New Zealand, as well as here in the US.
The bouts of vomiting, nausea, and severe abdominal pain tend to impact long term, heavy users of marijuana, though some younger people who smoke concentrates only a few times a week have had it too.
Kevin Hill: The precise mechanism is unclear at this point. It’s thought to involve the dysregulation of the body’s naturally occurring endocannabinoid system. There are receptors located throughout the body, primarily in the brain, sometimes in the GI tract.
Extensive use may lead to changes in function of the receptors. Ultimately those receptors in the GI tract, in the gut, appear to be affected in an adverse way, that’s when abdominal pain, nausea and vomiting can result. …
Alison van Diggelen: Nurse Katie Nava describes it more vividly:
Katie Nava: Your endocannabinoid system is like a fuse box and someone ripped it out. It’s like spaghetti wires misfiring everywhere. It’s why our bodies can’t thermo-regulate, it’s why our brains can’t talk to our stomachs properly. It doesn’t help that we’re so dehydrated, and why it’s the number one thing that kills CHS patients: kidney failure.
Alison van Diggelen: As well as the non-stop vomiting, patients also often experience dramatic weight loss, a rapid heart rate and dangerously low potassium levels. One piece of the puzzle that might help doctors to diagnose it is: if patients tell them that hot showers or baths help to alleviate these symptoms.
So does Dr Hill think it might be possible to identify those most at risk?
Kevin Hill: It’s very likely there’s a genetic component to it. Most people who use cannabis don’t have this problem, so it’s something particular to a subset who use it. What we do know is, if you use cannabis, this is a possibility and if they present with symptoms they need to stop using. If not appropriately diagnosed, you can have very serious consequences.
Alison van Diggelen: It’s been reported that two people have died from CHS. And the dehydration caused by vomiting can have long term impacts on the heart and liver. Once relatively rare, CHS is becoming more common around the world, especially where marijuana has been legalized. Dr. Hill estimates about three million people have suffered CHS in the United States and his hospital has treated thousands of patients.
Kevin Hill: I’m at Beth Israel Deaconess Harvard teaching hospital. I routinely work with folks in our emergency department… They’re seeing these cases more and more.
Alison van Diggelen: Some ER doctors in SF are seeing it on every shift. Other nurses in Denver see it about once a week, but it’s on the rise.
Keith Humphreys is a professor of behavioral sciences and a leading addiction scholar at Stanford University.
Keith Humphreys: The majority of Americans have access to recreational cannabis. At least 80-90% have access to medicinal cannabis… There’s always been a wink and a nod as to what medical cannabis is in the United States.
THC is the principal intoxicant in the plant. In the 1980s, 1990s, a typical plant might have 5-7% THC. Studies of the current legal market show they have 20%. Some products have 50-80%: DABS and wax extract. It’s dramatically stronger.
Speaking as a scientist, I don’t really know much what they do: there are fundamentally novel products I wouldn’t want to generalize, any more than I’d say: You can understand what it’s like to drink a pint of vodka, if you’ve had a pint of beer.
Great Increases in the dose of the drug can have effects you can’t infer from the low dose.
There’s been a great increase in the number of people who use cannabis every day… Perhaps tied to potency: More people are addicted. More users look like cigarette smokers; all day long they have cannabis going. That was uncommon in the days of lower potency.
Alison van Diggelen: One study from the Netherlands found that the concentration of THC (tetrahydrocannabinol) – the compound that makes you feel “high” – in cannabis sold in retail outlets had roughly doubled between 2000 and 2015. (from link above)
Humphreys says the number of people using cannabis in the United States is growing about 3-5% a year, but the volume of cannabis sold is going up much faster. Kevin Hill: The purity and potency of any cannabinoid you use, including whole plant cannabis, is critical to know because it does appear the adverse effects of cannabis are often dose dependent….When I talk to patients, about what they’re using, I want to know specifically and ask them to bring in labels.
You have to know what you’re putting in your body, to know the potential outcome can be, either good or bad.
Alison van Diggelen: So – what’s more dangerous? Vaping, smoking or edibles?
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Kevin Hill: In terms of health effects, smoking is the worst possible thing you can do. Vaping is slightly better than combustible cannabis, but oral cannabis products are better in that way. We want people to be thoughtful…
There are always risks involved. You wanna get products from a reputable source. In general oral consumption is the least harmful, depending on the dose involved. If you get to the point where your use is creeping up… Sometimes intervention is necessary. Talk to a healthcare provider.
Alison van Diggelen: Professor Humphreys believes that alongside people learning more about what they’re using, healthcare professionals need to be aware of CHS – to catch it early.
Keith Humphreys: People who work in hospitals need to be aware of it and generally are not. We need more public health messaging to counter the industry message which is: it cures everything and has no downside!
We don’t tolerate that for other substances like tobacco, alcohol because we know it can harm people. We need it not just for CHS, but for memory problems, concentration problems. People do worse in school if they’re heavy users.
Public health is in a defensive crouch about cannabis, compared to tobacco and alcohol, in part because they have a powerful industry on the other side of the table. It’s also more cultural: no one wants to be a finger-wagging, blue rinse activist saying: bad bad cannabis! Once it’s legal, that argument is over. Now it’s just like any other thing.
This is really in the hands of our political leadership and regulators. Will we learn the lesson of alcohol and tobacco? If we don’t regulate we get a lot of public health damage. Are we going to treat this as a cash cow and let industry sell as much as it wants? Or will we say: wait a minute, if we take all the controls off, you get a lot of suffering. Everyone in public health needs to be engaged and not fall for the line that cannabis is unlike any other drug in history. Every drug can have a bad effect. That’s the reality of our experience, the reality of chemistry.
Alison van Diggelen: Katie Nava has learned the hard way about the risks associated with cannabis use….
Katie Nava: We’ve created a super plant – don’t abuse it! If someone had told me: don’t smoke 20 joints a day, I woulda listened. Now it’s too late. I’ve completely ruined my body, my endocannabinoid system’s wrecked.
Alison van Diggelen: Giving anti-nausea drugs and replacing the minerals lost during vomiting with electrolytes are central to treating CHS. Antipsychotic drugs like Ativan and haloperidol can also help. But the only proven way to cure CHS is to stop cannabis use entirely.
Katie Nava: It’s literally a game of Russian Roulette…it’s a ticking time bomb.
Alison van Diggelen: Nava stopped two years ago, and she even avoids foods like black pepper, truffle oils, and broccoli that contain cannabinoids. Helping run a Cannabinoid Hyperemesis Recovery support group on Facebook keeps her busy. Founded three years ago, the support group now has over 12,000 members from around the world. Membership is growing about 10% a month. (8500 of the members are in the U.S., 1400 in Canada, 400 in UK).
Katie Nava: It was my AA (Alcoholics Anonymous) meeting. It helped me stay sober. It was my exchange. I gave up weed and went to my Facebook page. I’ve found my calling. It was an unfortunate way to find it. I owe my life to the page. We’re spreading awareness.
Alison van Diggelen: What else does Nurse Nava think should be done to raise awareness?
Katie Nava: If dispensaries would just put up signs saying: Hey this is what CHS is! Then, if someone comes down with it, they wouldn’t spend four years in misery like I did.
Hyperbole is overused these days, but when the Financial Times calls someone a superstar, I’m apt to repeat the title, especially if the person in question is so humble that he insists his impact is “a mystery.”
Adam Grant is a Wharton School Professor and influential author. Lately he’s become a “superstar management thinker” according to the FT’s Andrew Hill. I had the pleasure of interviewing Adam last month about his new book Think Again, and his wise words have resonated with me ever since.
Last week I was invited to be a guest on the BBC World Service program, Business Matters. The London producers asked me if I had interviewed anyone interesting lately, so how could I resist sharing some of Adam’s insights?
But even superstars can be upstaged. This week’s podcast also features a rare appearance from my dear old dog, Mookie. Working from home is one thing, but broadcasting from home when it’s time for your dog’s walk, is a little risky! When BBC presenter Fergus Nicoll asked me about the idea of adding Covid border controls between states in America, Mookie couldn’t help but share his perspective. You can hear clearly: he’s not a fan!
I look forward to sharing more of Adam’s observations and research in my next podcast: on why kindness builds resilience, what Malcolm Gladwell taught him about writing books, and the upsides of anger and frustration. And who hasn’t experienced some frustration over this challenging last year? He even suggests we think again about Elon Musk. According to Adam, despite his tough manager reputation, Musk scores off the charts on one far-reaching measure of kindness.
Here are highlights of our BBC discussion:
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And here’s a transcript, edited for length and clarity:
Fergus Nicoll: On Business Matters, we talk to people who help us understand the way we should approach business, the way our workforce works most effectively, especially as we come out of the Coronavirus pandemic. Alison, you’ve been talking to someone who’s a bit of a management guru, who has a few pointers for us, in terms of management style?
Alison van Diggelen: I recently interviewed Wharton School Professor and “superstar management psychologist” Adam Grant. His latest book is called Think Again. He urges us to nurture more open minds. He has a clear recipe for how to identify our biases and blind spots, and become less dogmatic and more “scientific” in our decision making. He explains why he’s been called a “logic bully” and why we call need a Challenge Network.
Adam Grant: I think the first step is to catch yourself when you slip into preaching, prosecuting or politicking. So I think we’re all vulnerable to these mindsets. When you’re in preacher mode, you believe you’ve already found the truth and you’re just trying to proselytize it. When you’re in prosecutor mode, you’re trying to win an argument and prove your case. And if you stop there, you’re not going to do much rethinking because you’ve already decided that you’re right and everyone else is wrong.
And then in politician mode you’re trying to win the approval of an audience through campaigning and lobbying and you might tell them what they want to hear, but you’re probably not changing what you really think.
One of the things I find helpful is to ask myself: okay how much time did I spend in each of those modes today? And I catch myself regularly going into prosecutor mode when I think somebody is wrong. I just feel like it’s my moral responsibility as a social scientist to bring them sharper logic and stronger evidence. I’ve been called a logic bully. I start bombarding people with data and with reasons and they tend to either attack or withdraw, which doesn’t go well.
So shifting into science mode for me is about reminding myself to value of humility over pride, and curiosity over conviction. My goal is to not let my ideas become my identity. You don’t have to invest in a microscope or a telescope. You don’t have to walk around wearing a lab coat. Thinking like a scientist just means when you have an opinion or you have a piece of knowledge, recognize it’s just a hypothesis: it might be true (or) it might be false. And if you want to test it, that means you have to look for reasons why you might be wrong. Not just the reason why you must be right. You have to listen to ideas that make you think hard, not just the ones that make you feel good. And you have to surround yourself with people who challenge your thought process, not just ones who agree with your conclusions.
Alison van Diggelen: You frame it in terms of driver’s ed. We all have blind spots, and in our cars it’s fine: we can use our mirrors and sensors. So how do we recognize our cognitive blind spots and how do we rectify them?
Adam Grant: I think usually the best sensors and mirrors are other people. Most of us lean on our support network, the people who who cheer lead for us, who reassure us, who encourage us. But to see our blind spots, we need a challenge network, a group of thoughtful critics that we trust to tell us the things that we do not want to hear but we need to hear.
Listen to more of the BBC Program here: We get reaction to Adam’s ideas from Karen Lema, Bureau Chief for Reuters News Agency in Manilla, and discuss Artificial Intelligence, drones, as well as Biden’s inspiring action on Climate Change.
Check back soon at Fresh Dialogues to hear more from Adam Grant.
“It highlighted an important point, which is that a lot of times the question is harder than the answer. And if you can properly phrase the question, then the answer is the easy part. To the degree that we can better understand the universe, then we can better know what questions to ask. Then whatever the question is that most approximates: what’s the meaning of life? That’s the question we can ultimately get closer to understanding. And so I thought to the degree that we can expand the scope and scale of consciousness and knowledge, then that would be a good thing.” Elon Musk
Although Apple fans will agree strongly with that assessment, feedback at YouTube loudly contradicts Musk. Here’s one of the more polite reactions:
How did the vigils for the death of the EV 1 help inspire Tesla Motors?
