You are powerful and your voice matters: A BBC Dialogue

You are powerful and your voice matters: A BBC Dialogue

With less than three weeks until the election, it’s a nerve wracking time here in the United States. Some call it a battle for the soul of the nation. Certainly the stakes could not be higher. This election will determine the future of the United States and in some respects, the world.

As a journalist, I strive to be balanced, and talk about the facts of any situation. I try not to air my personal preferences on the BBC. But this election year, I’m not pulling any punches about what an immoral and polarizing president Donald Trump has been. His dangerous impacts on civil rights, the environment and our standing in the world have and will have far reaching consequences. Another four years is unthinkable.

For these reasons, I’m backing the Biden-Harris ticket and joined the Vote Forward campaign to send handwritten letters to unregistered voters in swing states. Our goal is to convince silent voices that their vote matters and we’re urging them to take part and vote on November 3rd. 

For all those afraid to speak up and speak out, Kamala Harris is a profound inspiration. This quote resonates for me and I hope it does for you:

“You are powerful and your voice matters. You’re going to walk into many rooms in your life  where you may be the only one who looks like you. But remember that you are not alone. We are all in that room with you, applauding you. Cheering your voice.  So you use that voice and be strong.” Kamala Harris

Kamala’s words helped me speak out during my last BBC World Service appearance when I called Trump xenophobic and described his immigration policy “a lose-lose” for America. Find out below what I meant by that.

You can listen to the segment on the BBC World Service podcast, starting at 35:50.

Check out the Fresh Dialogues podcast below:

 

I had a lively conversation about immigration and innovation with the BBC’s Rahul Tandon and Andy Xie, an influential Chinese economist, based in Shanghai. Andy shared some insights about the Chinese education system that may surprise you.

Here is a transcript of our discussion, (edited for length and clarity).

Rahul Tandon: Alison, when you talk to people about the election, and the issues that are going to decide who people are going to vote for, where does immigration figure in that?

Alison van Diggelen: Immigration is an important issue, especially in Silicon Valley. There was a lot of backlash when Trump clamped down on H1B visas for skilled workers in Silicon Valley. A lot of tech CEOs spoke up and said it’s going to have a net effect of reducing jobs for American workers. To Andy’s point about people feeling unwelcome in America, Trump has been explicit and implicit about his xenophobic attitude, because he knows that it plays to his base. 

I think this is going to be a double whammy for America: The first loss is the immigrant innovation benefit that’s given America its competitive edge and has led to (the creation and dominance of) Silicon Valley.

The second loss is that it energizes Trump’s base and helps him potentially get re-elected. So I think Trump’s immigration policy is a lose-lose for America.

Rahul Tandon: A lot of Indians will tell you that Silicon Valley is made up of a lot of Indians. A lot of these big companies’ bosses did come from India (eg Google’s Sundar Pichai). Do you think these conversations are different if you went to a state like Texas?

Alison van Diggelen: Yes, it’s possible. Silicon Valley does face competition from Austin in Texas. It’s seen as the upstart to Silicon Valley. But what’s coming from Trump is this general feeling of: you’re not welcome if you’re an immigrant. It’s like shooting the country’s economic powerhouses in the foot. 

Rahul Tandon: Andy, do you think some of the president’s rhetoric will put some Chinese students off going to the United States?

Andy Xie: Oh, yeah! The issue in China is that you have to decide very early if you want to go abroad for college education.

Rahul Tandon: How early?

Andy Xie: In primary school you have to decide if you want to compete in the local college entry examinations or go abroad. Usually the preferred location is the US. So now a lot of parents are saying: maybe UK, maybe Australia? But still, the US has a lot more top universities than anywhere else. The Chinese system is very rigid… What’s going on is a huge problem for hundreds of thousands of people in China.

Rahul Tandon: Alison, we know there’s a high unemployment rate in the US, is that heightening the debate about immigration? Are we hearing more Americans saying: there are just not enough jobs here, what the president is talking about makes sense, we can’t let more people in.

Alison van Diggelen: Certainly his base believes that, they’ll believe anything he says. But the facts that the BBC’s Manuela Saragosa reported, from the experts, show the opposite.  Trump and his supporters are blind to the facts, just like they’re blind to the science of climate change. The fact is that more than 60% of those working in computer, math and science in Silicon Valley are foreign born, and that’s not a coincidence. Silicon Valley needs that skilled workforce in order to do what they do. 

Listen to Manuela’s immigration report, starting at 27:00 in the BBC podcast. 

Read and listen to more reports and dialogues with the BBC

Kamala Harris Photo credit: Gage Skidmore, Peoria, Arizona, 2019

Red Scare and Trump, the Masked and Unconscionable

Red Scare and Trump, the Masked and Unconscionable

Why is Trump accusing China of hacking biotech companies, and threatening to ban TikTok? Smart policy or Red Scare tactics  to distract us from his fatal response to the pandemic ?

Last month, Donald Trump finally started wearing a mask and doling out some good advice on Covid. Is it too little, too late?

I was invited to join the BBC World Service program Business Matters to discuss the latest reversal from the White House, as well as breaking business news and analysis.

“Trump only started wearing a mask last week, which is unconscionable. And he’s been spreading misinformation on the number of cases and cures…”

Here are highlights from my conversation with the BBC’s effervescent Rahul Tandon in London, and outspoken business advisor Simon Littlewood in Singapore. The transcript has been edited for length and clarity.

Listen to the BBC podcast @6:10.

Or listen to highlights on the Fresh Dialogues iTunes podcast (online podcast or below):

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Rahul Tandon: Alison, where you are in Silicon Valley, this rising tension between China and the US… What do people make of it? Is there a lot of support for the president and Mike Pompeo’s strong stance?

Alison van Diggelen:  This is a political move, this is distracting action from our president’s mess up of the response to the Covid virus. I applaud their call to come together to fight a common enemy. But they’re forgetting that the biggest threat humanity faces is Covid-19.

There is a race going on, it’s like a new space race to find a reliable vaccine. It’s even more intense than the space race: the first country to get there will get a humanitarian reward of saving lives and also an economic reward. There will be a massive reward by allowing a swift return to business as usual, and a huge boost in consumer confidence.

This Trump White House action is a distracting political move. It feels a bit like the Red Scare of the Cold War Era. 

Simon Littlewood: I agree. That’s exactly what it is. I’d echo Alison’s comments. There clearly are serious domestic issues in the U.S. and the president would do well to concentrate on them.

Rahul Tandon: I want to come back to Alison: we’re talking about China trying to hack information when it comes to Coronavirus vaccines and treatments. That’s just like the old world of espionage. It’s something that’s always gone on and now we’re looking at the stakes in a new tech world? 

Alison van Diggelen: That’s right. Last week’s Twitter hack showed that even tech companies in the heart of Silicon Valley, with some of the smartest minds in the world and savvy programmers, are not immune to cyber criminals. I think it’s very likely that Americans are doing the same in China. Every major super power is trying to hack in and see what the other countries are doing. It’s just like the space race.

Rahul Tandon: There we go. We have two of the finest minds in the world with us here on Business Matters today. (Thanks Rahul!)

Twitter Hack

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Simon Littlewood: Hopefully un-hacked!

Rahul Tandon: I was very certain about Alison. But Simon, we’ll need to give you another 40 minutes to see how you perform during the rest of the program…

 

Trump’s U-turn on wearing a mask

Listen @34 on the BBC podcast

Trump: We’re asking Americans to wear a mask…imploring young Americans to avoid packed bars, and other indoor gatherings. Be safe and be smart.

Rahul Tandon: Are Americans being safe and smart? Are people wearing masks?

Alison van Diggelen: I’m holding my breath hearing the president. He only started wearing a mask last week, which is unconscionable. And he’s been spreading misinformation on the number of cases and cures.

I’m glad to hear that he’s finally pushing the right message –– congratulations to whoever persuaded him! But his White House has been undermining the clear scientific evidence from Anthony Fauci who’s probably the best qualified to educate the world on what needs to be done. 

It’s a little late, but I’m glad he’s doing the right thing finally. I hope he uses his Twitter account to spread the right message: Wearing a mask is the most effective thing people can do, as well as sheltering at home and minimizing exposure to others.

We also discuss:

The Green Recovery: Fergus Nicoll’s interview with Tim Smith, the founder of the Eden Project about changing attitudes to nature, localism and the environment, as a result of the pandemic.

What can be done to tackle the growing problem of fake news during the coronavirus pandemic? 

What Britain’s new Top 20 Afrobeats Chart means for African music and the movement “This Is New Africa.”

 

When is it OK to be a Pirate? Talking Ethics, Trade on BBC

When is it OK to be a Pirate? Talking Ethics, Trade on BBC

Last week, I was invited to join the BBC World Service program “Business Matters” to discuss business ethics and the trade war. To give a flavor of the Silicon Valley zeitgeist, I shared highlights of my interview with Scott Kupor, a prominent venture capitalist (VC), and author of the book, “Secrets of Sand Hill Road.”

On the never ending drama of the US/China trade war, I came up with an apt way of describing Trump’s strategy: “Like a bull in a China shop.” (Listen at 15:45 in the BBC podcast)

This view was bolstered, just four days later, when we saw the biggest drop in the Dow Jones all year, and experts blamed it on Trump’s escalation of trade tensions. Headlines like this one are now common: Have U.S. Tariffs backfired?  I won’t be surprised if an impulsive tweet from Trump plunges the world economy into recession.

But meantime, here’s a transcript of my conversation with the BBC’s Fergus Nicoll and author Jasper Kim in Seoul. It’s been edited (and italicized) for length and clarity.

Fergus Nicoll: Silicon Valley has had its fair share of “fake it till you make it” stories, would-be billionaire entrepreneurs who talk a great game and acquire a loyal and admiring following, then they go bust and sometimes go to jail. And it’s not just the tech sector. It’s fair to say the chance of hearing unvarnished, unpartisan truth from any given politician might be lowish. Alison, who’ve you been discussing ethical behavior with?

Alison van Diggelen: I had a great discussion recently with VC Scott Kupor…We talked about Facebook’s mantra of “moving fast and breaking things” and he feels the rules are different for small startups which have limited impact. He calls them “the pirates.”

I asked him: Are you saying it’s OK to be a pirate in the early stages of a startup?

Scott Kupor: It depends on what pirate means (audience laughter).

Fraud and misleading people is clearly not right. But the idea that you might enter into a market where you’re not exactly sure what the product should look like, you might have a theory on what your regulatory structure is, but you’re not 100% sure.

CWClub Scott Kupor w Alison van Diggelen

[Photo credit:Sarah Gonzalez/Commonwealth Club]

I’ll give you a great example: we’re investors in Airbnb and Lyft. These companies probably couldn’t have been successful if they’d asked for permission every time they went into a new market. You could argue that was unethical: They should’ve got permission first. The reality is, they said: we’re going to go into a new market, we believe we have a defensible theory that why what we’re doing is appropriate from a regulatory perspective, but we also know we’re likely to get challenged on that. But over time, if a consumer utility is big enough, there is a way to deal with these issues. So that’s my definition of a pirate: I think that’s reasonable acceptable behavior. Fraud and misleading people is not acceptable behavior.

Alison van Diggelen: In order to create a startup that’s potentially going to change the world, you have to break some rules and the question is: which rules? You have to question the status quo. Theranos –– the blood testing company that famously imploded last year and the CEO has been charged with fraud –– is a great example of going too far, going to the dark side. One of the Theranos whistleblowers, Tyler Schulz, has started a nonprofit called Ethics in Entrepreneurship to  teach ethics, get the basics down.

This is why I asked Scott Kupor about ethics. VCs work closely with startups (they often join their board of directors) and I wanted to hold his feet to the fire and say: You (and your colleagues) have a responsibility to make sure your entrepreneurs are thinking about ethics. It’s one thing to be a pirate in the early days, but at some point you have to grow up and be like the navy and play according to the rules and respect the nation’s laws.

Fergus Nicoll: Do you think these internal debates translate across Asia in terms of startups, Jasper? For example, startups in Vietnam saying: we think we’ve got a space in the market, but we’ll have to break the rules to get there, then grow…and then we’ll behave?

Jasper Kim: There are some minute cultural nuances, but similarities. If you look at Steve Jobs. His famous quote is:

“All the great ideas were stolen.”

If you look at Apple in the early days: they flew a pirate flag and were unabashed by the fact that they basically ripped off or stole ideas from here and there. The genius of it was connecting different technologies that existed before, like the touch screen, with ATM machines, like the wheel on the iPod, and use that to make genius products like the iPhone.

What is ethical? That’s a big question. Kupor’s defense is that it’s all for consumer utilitarianism, but there’s also the other side of what’s ethical and that’s Immanuel Kant, and his theory of Categorical Imperative. You have to have certain values as inputs, you shouldn’t just deal with outcomes to justify your behavior.

Continue listening to the BBC podcast

Of course, the trade war and piracy (of IP) are connected at the core, but that’s a discussion for another day…

The BBC program aired live on August 1, 2019 and my conversation with Scott Kupor took place in front of a live audience at the Commonwealth Club in Silicon Valley on June 10, 2019.

Find out more about my Kupor interview at Fresh Dialogues

 

 

BBC Report: NextEV Founder Shares Supercar Inspiration

BBC Report: NextEV Founder Shares Supercar Inspiration

By Alison van Diggelen, host of Fresh Dialogues

The race to build the “ultimate” electric car is heating up. Every month, it seems another electric car company joins the fray to offer a car stylish enough to attract the Tesla crowd, and affordable enough to meet the growing demand from China, the United States and Europe.

NextEV stands out from the crowd for two reasons:

  1. It has solid backing, from a broad range of top venture capital and Internet companies like Sequoia and Tencent.

2. Its Silicon Valley R&D facility is led by Padmasree Warrior, “The Queen of the Electric Car” and she’s rapidly attracting top tech talent from the likes of Tesla and Apple.

Last month, I attended the grand opening of NextEV Silicon Valley and interviewed its founder, William Li. He shared his “Blue Sky” ambition (he means it literally) and how his grandfather inspired him to go from cattle herder to Internet multi-millionaire. It was the first interview he’d ever done in English. I filed this report for the BBC World Service’s Tech Program, Click.

Here’s a transcript from today’s program, with some great insights from host Gareth Mitchell and BBC contributor, Bill Thompson. The transcript has been edited for length and clarity:

BBC Host, Gareth Mitchell: One event that did happen was the recent launch of yet another electric vehicle outfit in California. This is the Silicon Valley division of a Chinese startup called NextEV. The champagne flowed and the ribbon was cut – the digital ribbon – but our reporter Alison van Diggelen was most interested in the economics of it all. You don’t need to be an investor to know just how risky these ventures are as the technology gradually matures. In California and China state funding and tax breaks are all part of getting these businesses off the ground. Alison tracked down NextEV founder, former cattle herder and now big time entrepreneur, William Li.

Alison van Diggelen: At NextEV’s Silicon Valley launch, William Li confirmed that on November 21st, NextEV will reveal its first supercar in London. The electric car is expected to offer a 0-60 acceleration in under three seconds. Its Formula E racing team has used a dual-motor setup on its race car, and it’s likely to be a feature of the supercar. (The top speed of the sleek two-seater will be over 180 mph, and its price is likely to be equally extravagant!)

NextEV is late join to the electric car race. So how does Li intend to challenge Tesla and the dozens of electric car companies popping up worldwide?

William Li: Tesla is a great company, I respect them. But Tesla was founded 2003. Lots changed. It’s a mobile internet era. We can do better to communicate with our users, give our users a much better holistic user experience.

He aims to do for the car what Apple did for the smart phone.

NextEV William Li on stage, photo by Alison van Diggelen, BBC WSHe learned a lot about user experience from Bit Auto, a popular web portal in China and his first business success. He’s now built a global startup – with facilities in Beijing, Shanghai, Silicon Valley, London and Munich. The global workforce is 2000.

In Silicon Valley, its 250-strong team of auto and software experts is growing rapidly. U.S. CEO Padmasree Warrior – former CTO at Cisco – is hiring experts in artificial intelligence, voice interaction and user interface from the likes of Tesla, Apple and Dropbox.  Warrior says they’re already working on affordable cars for China’s burgeoning demand.

Padmasree Warrior: In China, There’s a large shift happening … Environment issues are driving the government to look at electric vehicles as part of the solution… It’s healthier for the environment to drive an electric vehicle.

China is offering generous tax incentives to electric carmakers and consumers, driving a flood of companies into the space. NextEV recently signed an agreement with the Nanjing Municipal Government in China, to build a $500 million factory to build electric motors.

Similarly in Silicon Valley, a fleet of electric car companies has chosen to locate here, thanks to state tax incentives and the strong talent base. These include Tesla, Atieva, and Le Eco.

I spoke with California’s Director of Economic Development, Panorea Avdis. She explained how state policy is helping reduce greenhouse gas emissions, by focusing on the tech industry…

Panorea Avdis:  The goal is to have 1 million electric zero emission vehicles on the road by 2020.

(Today, California has about 300,000 electric cars, about half of the nation’s total.)

Alison: NextEV secured $10M in tax credits. Tell me why that’s cost effective for the people of California.

Panorea Avdis:  The return on investment…nearly 1000 jobs in the next 5 years, speaks for itself. California is leading the way, there’s no other state in the union that has this type of aggressive polices and it’s really inspiring this innovation in technology to come forward.

But making cars is notoriously hard. News broke this month that Apple is shelving its electric car plans to focus on self-driving software.

William Li knows it’s a tough road ahead. He gives his company just over a 50% chance of success.

As a boy, Li was a cattle herder in China. He’s come a long way and credits his grandfather’s wisdom:

William Li: [Speaks first in Mandarin ] The journey is more important than the result. So follow your heart….your original wish. Don’t worry about failure.

Like Tesla’s Elon Musk, Li is concerned about climate change and also the dense smog in Beijing and Shanghai. He blames polluting gas-guzzling cars.

NextEV’s brand in China is called “Way-Lye”

William Li: It means blue sky coming. That’s my original wish.

It’s an ambitious goal that could be a very long way off, especially in China’s congested and polluted cities.

Gareth Mitchell: That’s Alison van Diggelen reporting from Silicon Valley. So Bill Thompson – the journey is more important that the result?

Bill Thompson: The result is much more important than the journey here, because unless we get much cleaner public and personal transport, then we’re in big trouble. It’s really good to see another serious entrant in this market. It’s not sewn up yet by anyone. As we heard there about Tesla, there’s no first mover advantage because the technology is developing so quickly.

We know Padmasree Warrior’s reputation for delivering. She’s been on the show a few years back.  She was senior at Motorola, then went to Cisco. They’ve got really good people.

But the really interesting part of this is what happens in China. In China because  they have much more control over what people can do. The government can actually mandate a move to electric vehicles much more easily than they ever could in California and that gives a great market. So NextEV may be getting money and expertise over in Silicon Valley, but it’s what happens in China that’s really interesting.

Gareth Mitchell: I was interested in the economics side of the piece: the reliance partly on state funding to get these businesses going.

Bill Thompson: Occasionally state funding helps. You might have heard of this little thing called the Internet, kicked off with defense department funding from the US. It did pretty well by being able to rely on that funding for a critical period while it developed and then was able to be used by the private sector. One or two of these examples of it actually working…

BBC Dialogues: Meet The Queen of the Electric Car, NextEV

BBC Dialogues: Meet The Queen of the Electric Car, NextEV

By Alison van Diggelen, host of Fresh Dialogues

Today began with news that Apple was in talks with British carmaker McLaren about a possible acquisition, linked to Apple’s “Project Titan” electric car. Rumors were later squashed by McLaren, but attention is still on Apple’s autonomous car plans and speculation is mounting.

Meanwhile, my friends at the BBC invited me to share my (verified) interview with new electric vehicle company, NextEV. This Chinese startup, with a growing R&D facility in Silicon Valley has just come out of stealth mode and plans to reveal its “supercar” in November. When I interviewed Padmasree Warrior, CEO of NextEV USA last month, she couldn’t reveal the specs of the car, but my investigations concluded that it would be autonomous. This week, her spokesperson confirmed that both the first generation NextEV cars, to be manufactured in China, and those to be made at a manufacturing facility in the U.S. will be autonomous.

Listen to my report at the BBC’s Business Matters. Our electric/autonomous car discussion starts at 32:46.

Here’s a transcript of our discussion and my report (edited for length and clarity)

BBC Host, Anu Anand: Apparently Apple is NOT in talks with McLaren as reported by the Financial Times. This all underscores the feverish speculation about driverless car technology and where the major tech companies like Apple are putting their chips and what they’re doing to prepare products for this market. This is something you’ve been looking at too, isn’t it Alison?

Alison van Diggelen: Absolutely. Apple is notoriously secret…It’s well known they’ve been working for two years on the electric car (Project Titan). The latest speculation says they may be in talks with a San Francisco startup called Lit Motors. There is a race for electric vehicle talent and Apple recently laid off dozens of its team and is looking to fill that gap. I’ve been talking with NextEV, a real electric car maker that’s just coming out of stealth mode. Its CEO, Padmasree Warrior, invited me to visit its brand new R&D facility in San Jose. Here’s my report:

The race for affordable electric vehicles is heating up around the world. Here in Silicon Valley, just 10 miles from the factory where Tesla makes its electric cars, NextEV, an electric vehicle startup is racing to get on the track. Former CTO at Cisco, Padmasree Warrior now leads the U.S. facility of this global startup with operations in China, Germany and the UK. Despite her lack of car experience, Warrior’s bold approach to beat Tesla in China is earning her the name: “Queen of the electric car.”

Padmasree Warrior: When you think about cars in the old paradigm…people used to talk about Horse Power…we think in the future people will talk about ease of use, user interface, Artificial Intelligence. And so the shift from HP to AI is one of the shifts that we will embrace much more rapidly. Our opportunity within China is to combine all of the capabilities from the mobile Internet to focus on user experience – from ownership, to maintenance to post ownership services.

NextEV US HQ, photo by Alison van Diggelen for BBC reportNextEV US headquarters in San Jose is 85,000 square feet. When remodeling is complete, it will house a 10,500 square feet auto lab.

Alison van Diggelen: Energized by NextEV’s $1Billion in funding, Warrior and her Silicon Valley R&D team has gone from zero to 160 employees in about 9 months. It has attracted auto and software experts from the likes of Tesla, Apple and Dropbox. It’s this focus on the software that Warrior hopes will differentiate her products in a crowded race. She suggests that the touch screens on NextEV cars will be more actively utilized than Tesla’s and the car will automatically “know who’s driving it.”

New team member skill-sets suggest that features will include voice interaction and autonomous driving.

I asked her if building an attractive car was important too?

Padmasree Warrior: This is why we have a design center in Munich; we have an amazing industrial design team and styling expertise… We believe European design is unbelievably superior in the consumer product space.

Alison van Diggelen: NextEV’s founder, Chinese Internet billionaire William Li has a global strategy that aims to leverage each location’s comparative advantage and use virtual reality tools to make sure that all its teams are driving forward together.

Padmasree Warrior: Silicon Valley is obviously the place to be for looking at technology, looking at disruptions. China’s expertise is manufacturing, supply chain…obviously the market is there.

NextEV hopes to make a flying start in the Chinese market next year, but is keeping the specs of its cars under wraps, until the “supercar” is revealed before the year end. Co-President Martin Leach confirmed that their cars will definitely be cheaper than Tesla’s.

He spoke to me from NextEV’s London office:

Martin Leach: We’re not making a company for ultra millionaires and billionaires and then trying to transition the company to a more affordable solution…the supercar plays a role in our overall strategy, and is being developed alongside our other mainstream products… from day one.

Living wall at NextEV HQ, photo by Alison van DiggelenThe “living wall” in NextEV US Headquarters in San Jose, CA

With about 200 electric car companies in China alone, NextEV’s William Li has put his company’s chance of success at just 5%, but that doesn’t deter Warrior.

Alison van Diggelen: Although the odds are against her, Warrior – who’s known as a champion for women in tech – is following her own advice to women in business:

Padmasree Warrior: Be confident, go for what your dreams are. Sometimes, we second guess ourselves, we stay with what is comfortable rather than what we really desire to do. Take risks wisely, but take risks.

Alison van Diggelen: Her team in Silicon Valley is putting pedal to the metal to make it happen…

Continue listening to the podcast (@38:00) to hear our discussion about driverless car fears and the impact of this week’s Department of Transport guidelines for automated cars.

Find out more about Tesla’s plans and other Electric Vehicle developments at Fresh Dialogues

NB: As with all my BBC Dialogues and Reports at Fresh Dialogues, the copyright of this report remains with the BBC.

BBC Dialogues: What Does Brexit Mean For Globalization, Hillary Clinton?

BBC Dialogues: What Does Brexit Mean For Globalization, Hillary Clinton?

By Alison van Diggelen, host of Fresh Dialogues

As the seismic impact of Britains’s vote to leave the European Union rocks the political and financial world, the long term impact is still unclear. But it’s likely that the creation of a new political divide could have incessant repercussions around the world. What does it mean for globalization, and for U.S. presidential candidate, Hillary Clinton?

I was invited to take part in a live discussion on the BBC World Service last night with Simon Long, Banyan columnist for The Economist in Singapore; and Diana Furchtgott-Roth, director of Economics21 in New York.

I see Brexit as part of a larger trend: a widespread shift to nationalism and anti-globalization. It could be the beginning of the end of capitalism as we know it – the majority of Britons have voted against the status quo. Globalization is NOT working for them. In the US, it’s a big wake up call to establishment politics here. Hillary Clinton and the Democratic party need to take note.

BBC host, Fergus Nicholl led a lively discussion on the pros and cons of the Brexit vote. Here is a transcript of the globalization discussion (edited for length and clarity). Listen to the entire podcast at the BBC (Globalization focus starts at 38:38) or below:

Robert Hormats (former Under Secretary for Economic Growth for President Obama and Vice Chairman of Kissinger Associates) explained the U.S perspective:

Robert Hormats: We have a great stake in the global economic system…the global economy has a big effect on our own economy, as it does on other countries’ economies and if we give up that leadership or turn inward, it will hurt our economy…

Laura Trevelyan (BBC Correspondent, Washington D.C.): What can be done to restore economic stability?

Robert Hormats: I think it’s very important that political leaders try to help people who do not feel that they’ve benefited from globalization or from technology, to feel more included, to listen to those people. If these people feel more confident about their own lives, they’ll feel more confident about the global economy…We need to make sure the global economic system works effectively and that is now in jeopardy.

Diana Furchtgott-Roth: I’m fully in favor of globalization, but it doesn’t have to mean that Brussels can control what kind of vacuum cleaner you can buy…The EU has become too intrusive. And that’s why the majority of people voted to leave… not having to do with globalization but intrusion in everyday life…

Fergus Nicholl: Simon, take us into Asia with this issue of globalization…

Simon Long: It’s not just that people are uncomfortable with globalization, they’re uncomfortable with some of the byproducts: increased inequality, entrenched elites making decisions for them. And in that context this (Brexit) vote has resonated in some parts of Asia as a revolt against doing what you’re told is best for you. It’s a phenomenon one’s seen in elections in Indonesia in 2014…in the Philippines with the election of Rodrigo Duterte on an explicitly anti-elite, anti-establishment platform.  It’s part of an anti-globalization trend…a general revolt by the people who feel excluded from the elites.

Fergus Nicholl: Alison, you’ve got friends and family back home in Scotland. I wonder how they’ve been reacting over the last few days…

Alison van Diggelen: It looks to me like another referendum on Scottish independence is almost inevitable. I’ve heard anecdotally that some Scots who voted “No” to independence in 2014 are now inclined to vote “Yes” – they don’t want to be part of what they see as an isolationist, xenophobic “little England” mentality.

I see Brexit as part of a larger trend: a widespread shift to nationalism and anti-globalization. It could be the beginning of the end of capitalism as we know it – the majority of Britons have voted against the status quo. Globalization is NOT working for them. In the US, it’s a big wake up call to establishment politics here. Hillary Clinton and the Democratic party need to take note of it and start doing more to address the people who’re not benefiting from globalization and doing something to help them.

Fergus Nicholl: Simon, that’s a very bleak message: a sense of fundamental danger to the global financial system?

Simon Long: I think it’s justified. What we have seen is a big step back to the international order of the past 40-50 years. It does reflect a sense of resentment, not just in the UK, against the EU, but felt around the world, against the current economic system. If one looks at pioneering trade agreements, for example, The Trans-Pacific Partnership, it’s hard to find any country where that’s a popular idea: people think it’s either nothing to do with them or is against their interest.  The popular mood has disassociated itself from what governments are doing in globalization.

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